Forums - ST: Sure lock down traps? Show all 41 posts from this thread on one page Forums (http://www.shoryuken.com/forums/index.php) - Strategy & Tactics (http://www.shoryuken.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?forumid=10) -- ST: Sure lock down traps? (http://www.shoryuken.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=38528) Posted by chun_li1 on 09:04:2001 10:48 AM: ST: Sure lock down traps? To anyone good in ST, I just went through some of the MvC2 threads and on the subject of “lock downs” a lot of folks mentioned that of all the Capcom fighting games only MvC2 had “lockdowns”. (I interpret the lock down as a trap where you can’t move or you are forced to keep blocking and the only thing you can do is block and pray you win by time over. Not that familiar w/ MvC2 terminology) It suddenly hit me that they might have been around before, to a small degree. I remember that in ST, 6 to 7 years , some folks did this trap w/ Akuma and Fei Long. I’ll try to break down the trap below, but can’t be sure about all the moves. Fei Long : Against characters like Bison or Dee Day for example ((no (motion) anti air, anti air charge from down position)). I’ll use Dee Jay as example since I used that character and experienced this w/ him. Fei Long does, in the corner, on crouching or wake up Dee Jay his hcf, uf +K (don’t recall which strenght). After he finishes the move he does standing (close) strong or low short cancelled into again hcf, uf + K and repeats. From what I remember Dee Jay can’t use his Anti air special since he doesn’t stay long enough down in the charge position before Fei Long hits him again w/ his hcf, uf + K. And if I remember correctly Fei Longs hcf, uf + K had to be blocked standing. I tried to throw Fei Long after he recovers from his special but always unsuccessful. So far only Super works to get out of this “trap”. Against characters like Ryu (DP after Fei Long cancels into hcf, uf + K) or Chun Li (same as Ryu but w/ Spinning Bird Kick) this “trap” doesn’t work. Since Fei Longs special does good tick damage (2 – 4 blocked hits) he gets to do enough damage to you in time to win by time over. Akuma : Dee Jay gets thrown into corner or is tripped in corner. The moment he is down, Akuma from (about Ken’s standing RH) distance he does a slow/medium red or normal fireball (not so sure about strength and type). Before or when the fireball hits Dee Jay once he gets up, Akuma jumps straight up and does Air fireball. When Akuma lands, he repeats the process. Slow fireball, straight jump Airfireball, slow fire ball, etc. With Dee Jay you can’t seem to do anything. One downfall of his is his size. His body is big and he jumps kind a sluggish (with this I mean that you can’t do things that you could do with Chun Li or Vega). Let’s say you block the slow ground fire. Once you block it, the Air fireball will hurl towards you. If you jump up or back you’ll get hit (sluggish jump since Vega or Chun Li CAN jump back, up during this situation). What if you also block the Air fireball? When you block the Air fireball, Akuma is already on the ground and ready to do his slow ground fireball. The moment the air fireball disappears (out of screen or blocked) he’ll do his ground fireball. What if you anticipated at that moment (the second ground fireball) that he’ll dish out the fireball and you jump forward? Since the ground fire ball comes out before you recover from the Airfireball, Dee Jay jumps while Akumas fire ball is already in transit and almost out of his fire ball frame animation, and he gets stuffed by DP, DP into Hurricane kick. What if you decide to counter both of Akumas fireball w/ Dee Jays own fireball? Well, it is possible. But pointless. Your fireball will get snuffed while trying to counter Akumas fire ball or it negates it very late which is also pointless since Akuma can already move while you’re still stuck in the fire ball frame animation. The sad thing about this trap is that Dee Jay has no options. He can’t even use his Super since Air fireball will snuff it (Zangiefs lariat through Air fireball anyone?) and it won’t go through in time through the slow ground fireball (fast fireball it would though). Once you’re in the corner you’re dead. The perfect killing zone! Can anybody confirm this or add some more traps of this kind for ST (or any other SF games)? After 7 years, countless SF games and never ending matches my memory is not so good on ST anymore. chun_li1 Posted by sumo on 09:05:2001 02:36 AM: let see:dj and guile are worst in the game when against akuma......u had no chance against the cheap air-fb.....u better play balrog and vega against akuma![they are more top tier than dj and guile] Posted by roboticus on 09:05:2001 03:05 PM: The fb traps are good traps, but not necessarily lockdowns, meaning you can't do anything, right? In this case, I'll just concentrate on traps, b/c only Akuma can really lockdown a good number of characters, whereas some true lockdowns are only character vs. character specific. Sagat locks down a ton of characters, particularly Bison. Choi kept my Bison in the corner for about 320 secs (thankfully, the game ended by time out so, it was really only like 90) -- really, I took a ton of hits just to get out of the corner. Mix up high and low fast tigers w/slow tigers. Slowly advance on your cornered character into s.short range and start comboing blckd s.shorts into low tigers. Another good one is Guile's c.short xx sb lockdown, as demonstrated by Jesse from MN at the MWC. This should literally lock an opponent for like 30 secs. Guile has to start right next the opponent (and not get thrown) and c.short xx sb, repeat. Guile will naturally be pushed out of the corner, but not for like 30 secs. Opponent can't do anything, and Guile has to have really disciplined timing. Other than the Fei Long one you mentioned, I can't think of any others right now. Dale Posted by chun on 09:06:2001 04:44 AM: quote: Originally posted by roboticus The fb traps are good traps, but not necessarily lockdowns, meaning you can't do anything, right? In this case, I'll just concentrate on traps, b/c only Akuma can really lockdown a good number of characters, whereas some true lockdowns are only character vs. character specific. Sagat locks down a ton of characters, particularly Bison. Choi kept my Bison in the corner for about 320 secs (thankfully, the game ended by time out so, it was really only like 90) -- really, I took a ton of hits just to get out of the corner. Mix up high and low fast tigers w/slow tigers. Slowly advance on your cornered character into s.short range and start comboing blckd s.shorts into low tigers. Another good one is Guile's c.short xx sb lockdown, as demonstrated by Jesse from MN at the MWC. This should literally lock an opponent for like 30 secs. Guile has to start right next the opponent (and not get thrown) and c.short xx sb, repeat. Guile will naturally be pushed out of the corner, but not for like 30 secs. Opponent can't do anything, and Guile has to have really disciplined timing. Other than the Fei Long one you mentioned, I can't think of any others right now. Dale wht?why still bother guile and sagat???they suck against akuma!!!play rog and honda instead.....they are more top tier than the about chars! Posted by roboticus on 09:06:2001 05:13 PM: quote: Originally posted by chun wht?why still bother guile and sagat???they suck against akuma!!!play rog and honda instead.....they are more top tier than the about chars! STFU Chun/Chan/Grimlock (no offense to the other Grimlock poster)! Sagat does not suck. Do you not read tourney results? Why do you not read what other people are saying to you? This is from people who have entered real tournaments not BS Akuma-fests in HK. If the HK ST scene is really dominated by Akuma and Honda, then you guys are the biggest bunch of scrubs out there. A well-tuned Sagat will own a scrub Akuma all day for free. If you can't beat the scub Akumas, then guess what that makes you. Dale Posted by chun_li1 on 09:07:2001 10:51 AM: quote: Originally posted by roboticus The fb traps are good traps, but not necessarily lockdowns, meaning you can't do anything, right? In this case, I'll just concentrate on traps, b/c only Akuma can really lockdown a good number of characters, whereas some true lockdowns are only character vs. character specific. Sagat locks down a ton of characters, particularly Bison. Choi kept my Bison in the corner for about 320 secs (thankfully, the game ended by time out so, it was really only like 90) -- really, I took a ton of hits just to get out of the corner. Mix up high and low fast tigers w/slow tigers. Slowly advance on your cornered character into s.short range and start comboing blckd s.shorts into low tigers. Another good one is Guile's c.short xx sb lockdown, as demonstrated by Jesse from MN at the MWC. This should literally lock an opponent for like 30 secs. Guile has to start right next the opponent (and not get thrown) and c.short xx sb, repeat. Guile will naturally be pushed out of the corner, but not for like 30 secs. Opponent can't do anything, and Guile has to have really disciplined timing. Other than the Fei Long one you mentioned, I can't think of any others right now. Dale Well, thanks for contributing but your traps have one flaw and are thus not the same as the ones I mentioned. If your characters had a Super stored against Sagat & Guile (Super fireball, horizontal body Super,etc.) , you could get out of the traps you described and hit them. Just alone having the Super would make your opponent wary and mix up his trap pattern. In my examples having a Super gains you nothing (against Fei Long you just get out of corner w/ it but Fei Long can still jump on you from behind, combo you before you recover). Actually I was trying to give examples where once you're placed in a certain position, you might as well give up or hope he somehow makes a execution mistake (w/ fireballs? right...!) In both my examples the opponent just has to do the same thing over and over. Just like conveyerbelt work, just do the move sequence of the trap with a fixed timing. He doesn't have to hesitate for a short, fearing a counter attack (Super, jump in). Just follow the sequence and just react to what ever you do to break the trap (which is only one option w/ DJ: jump forward into ready DP as explained in my thread w/ Akuma) Another point I was stressing was that some characters have a harder time w/ some traps then others. In the Akuma trap Dee Jay must be the worst. Other charcters have more mobility in that trap or a method (Super or Special) to escape from the trap. Just Dee Jay doesn't. chun_li1 BTW, doesn't Bisons Psycho Crusher go over low Tiger shots in ST? If it does, and your opponent knows this, he wouldn't throw them out one after the other but instead stop once in a while (or stop altogether) and wait for Bison "counter" Psycho Crusher. Posted by roboticus on 09:07:2001 02:54 PM: quote: Originally posted by chun_li1 Well, thanks for contributing but your traps have one flaw and are thus not the same as the ones I mentioned. If your characters had a Super stored against Sagat & Guile (Super fireball, horizontal body Super,etc.) , you could get out of the traps you described and hit them. Just alone having the Super would make your opponent wary and mix up his trap pattern. There is no such thing as a flawless trap in ST or any game (don't know about MvC2 since I don't play it) that you can do forever. Of course there are going to be ways to get out, you can't do the trap ad infinitum -- even Akuma's bread and butter trap (jump air-fb, fb) can be escaped by supers, etc. DJ can escape by trading hits, not easy, but it gets him out. So what if he finds himself back in the corner in 10 secs? For the purpose of this discussion, even fb traps are effective lockdowns. How often is your opponent going to have a super ready to get out? It's not like you begin the match with it. Even the Fei long trap is escapable. The first time I played Jumpsuit Jesse (circa 97?) he had my Bison stuck in the corner for like 50 secs w/those crazy "chicken wing" combos (tiger knee motion move + k -- hey that's what we called it at UofI). But, you can't do it ad infinitum. I estimate that all these lockdowns/traps (except maybe Sagat's, some Akuma match-ups) can only be repeated 3 times before you get a chance to move. Depending on what you do to move out the trap determines if your stuck in the trap again. A simple move forward may stick you back in the trap, making it _seem_ endless, but not necessarily so. For example, Ryu's fb trap: In the corner, Ryu can easily make you block 3 fbs, but if you don't jump straight up, you can get stuck in it again, thus making it seem like your stuck in it for like a minute. quote: Originally posted by chun_li1 In my examples having a Super gains you nothing (against Fei Long you just get out of corner w/ it but Fei Long can still jump on you from behind, combo you before you recover). Getting out of the corner breaks the trap, gets you position, I'd say that that's a lot to gain. quote: Originally posted by chun_li1 Actually I was trying to give examples where once you're placed in a certain position, you might as well give up or hope he somehow makes a execution mistake (w/ fireballs? right...!) Yes, but those positions don't last long. quote: Originally posted by chun_li1 In both my examples the opponent just has to do the same thing over and over. Just like conveyerbelt work, just do the move sequence of the trap with a fixed timing. He doesn't have to hesitate for a short, fearing a counter attack (Super, jump in). Just follow the sequence and just react to what ever you do to break the trap (which is only one option w/ DJ: jump forward into ready DP as explained in my thread w/ Akuma) This paragraph doesn't make sense, why is the opponent laying the trap, and trying to get out of it? Regardless, i think I know what you're talking about. Fei Long and Akuma can't repeat these traps forever. The only such trap I know about is the ridiculousy hard timing of Bison (c.strong xx scissor kick, repeat) v. Dhalsim in HF. So, I guess I'm saying that I don't know what you're arguing about, and my traps are relevant to this discussion. quote: Originally posted by chun_li1 Another point I was stressing was that some characters have a harder time w/ some traps then others. In the Akuma trap Dee Jay must be the worst. Other charcters have more mobility in that trap or a method (Super or Special) to escape from the trap. Just Dee Jay doesn't. DJ can MGU through the air-fb, jump the ground fb, jump at Akuma and hope to trade w/j.short (or is it strong?). This is how he breaks the trap. Vega and Zangief have just as hard a time. quote: Originally posted by chun_li1 BTW, doesn't Bisons Psycho Crusher go over low Tiger shots in ST? If it does, and your opponent knows this, he wouldn't throw them out one after the other but instead stop once in a while (or stop altogether) and wait for Bison "counter" Psycho Crusher. No, Bison has to wait until he jump straight up. Neither torpedo nor sk gets him out. He can try to throw or he can try to trade his s.kicks, but those are probably worse options. Dale Posted by mad on 09:08:2001 01:16 PM: quote: Originally posted by roboticus STFU Chun/Chan/Grimlock (no offense to the other Grimlock poster)! Sagat does not suck. Do you not read tourney results? Why do you not read what other people are saying to you? This is from people who have entered real tournaments not BS Akuma-fests in HK. If the HK ST scene is really dominated by Akuma and Honda, then you guys are the biggest bunch of scrubs out there. A well-tuned Sagat will own a scrub Akuma all day for free. If you can't beat the scub Akumas, then guess what that makes you. Dale WTF???sagat is rock in ST?????????sagat own akuma?????if u think so than u are newbie......do u know wht is akuma air-fb????akuma kill sagat with double perfect by just air fb.....this is why i think honda is better than sagat!!!!!torpdo though air fb trap!!! u suck! btw,i am not only hk honda master,but also rog and vega master.... Posted by mad on 09:08:2001 01:23 PM: quote: Originally posted by chun_li1 Well, thanks for contributing but your traps have one flaw and are thus not the same as the ones I mentioned. If your characters had a Super stored against Sagat & Guile (Super fireball, horizontal body Super,etc.) , you could get out of the traps you described and hit them. Just alone having the Super would make your opponent wary and mix up his trap pattern. In my examples having a Super gains you nothing (against Fei Long you just get out of corner w/ it but Fei Long can still jump on you from behind, combo you before you recover). Actually I was trying to give examples where once you're placed in a certain position, you might as well give up or hope he somehow makes a execution mistake (w/ fireballs? right...!) In both my examples the opponent just has to do the same thing over and over. Just like conveyerbelt work, just do the move sequence of the trap with a fixed timing. He doesn't have to hesitate for a short, fearing a counter attack (Super, jump in). Just follow the sequence and just react to what ever you do to break the trap (which is only one option w/ DJ: jump forward into ready DP as explained in my thread w/ Akuma) Another point I was stressing was that some characters have a harder time w/ some traps then others. In the Akuma trap Dee Jay must be the worst. Other charcters have more mobility in that trap or a method (Super or Special) to escape from the trap. Just Dee Jay doesn't. chun_li1 BTW, doesn't Bisons Psycho Crusher go over low Tiger shots in ST? If it does, and your opponent knows this, he wouldn't throw them out one after the other but instead stop once in a while (or stop altogether) and wait for Bison "counter" Psycho Crusher. honda torpedo go over low tiger....so honda own sagat for perfect.... btw,how guile avoid the akuma air fb???guile suck no way. Posted by snk dude on 09:08:2001 03:45 PM: ST: Sure lock down traps ? How do you do Dhalsim's Lock down trap in ST ? Posted by Galvatron on 09:08:2001 04:53 PM: That Fei Long vs Dee Jay trap: couldn't Dee Jay just press standing MP to fend him off? Might trade maybe. Posted by BarrelO on 09:08:2001 07:54 PM: Just thought I'd clarify something. A lockdown is a trap that leaves you in permanent blockstun. In other words, once you're put in it, your character gets chipped to death and there's no way you can escape. The only trap in MvC2 that works as a literal lockdown is Spiral/Sabretooth, and that only works against the characters that are too large to duck under Sabretooth's bullets. Posted by mad on 09:09:2001 07:48 AM: guile and dj are the suckest against akuma's air fb trap...... Posted by chun_li1 on 09:09:2001 08:57 AM: quote: Originally posted by Galvatron That Fei Long vs Dee Jay trap: couldn't Dee Jay just press standing MP to fend him off? Might trade maybe. Most of the time you get thrown (but w/ throw recovery) if you try to throw Fei Long, assuming he's using standing MP to cancel into his special. chun_li1 Posted by mad on 09:09:2001 09:19 AM: both of them are not top tier! Posted by chun_li1 on 09:09:2001 10:37 AM: quote: Originally posted by roboticus There is no such thing as a flawless trap in ST or any game (don't know about MvC2 since I don't play it) that you can do forever. Of course there are going to be ways to get out, you can't do the trap ad infinitum -- even Akuma's bread and butter trap (jump air-fb, fb) can be escaped by supers, etc. DJ can escape by trading hits, not easy, but it gets him out. So what if he finds himself back in the corner in 10 secs? For the purpose of this discussion, even fb traps are effective lockdowns. How often is your opponent going to have a super ready to get out? It's not like you begin the match with it. Even the Fei long trap is escapable. The first time I played Jumpsuit Jesse (circa 97?) he had my Bison stuck in the corner for like 50 secs w/those crazy "chicken wing" combos (tiger knee motion move + k -- hey that's what we called it at UofI). But, you can't do it ad infinitum. I estimate that all these lockdowns/traps (except maybe Sagat's, some Akuma match-ups) can only be repeated 3 times before you get a chance to move. Depending on what you do to move out the trap determines if your stuck in the trap again. A simple move forward may stick you back in the trap, making it _seem_ endless, but not necessarily so. For example, Ryu's fb trap: In the corner, Ryu can easily make you block 3 fbs, but if you don't jump straight up, you can get stuck in it again, thus making it seem like your stuck in it for like a minute. Getting out of the corner breaks the trap, gets you position, I'd say that that's a lot to gain. Yes, but those positions don't last long. This paragraph doesn't make sense, why is the opponent laying the trap, and trying to get out of it? Regardless, i think I know what you're talking about. Fei Long and Akuma can't repeat these traps forever. The only such trap I know about is the ridiculousy hard timing of Bison (c.strong xx scissor kick, repeat) v. Dhalsim in HF. So, I guess I'm saying that I don't know what you're arguing about, and my traps are relevant to this discussion. DJ can MGU through the air-fb, jump the ground fb, jump at Akuma and hope to trade w/j.short (or is it strong?). This is how he breaks the trap. Vega and Zangief have just as hard a time. No, Bison has to wait until he jump straight up. Neither torpedo nor sk gets him out. He can try to throw or he can try to trade his s.kicks, but those are probably worse options. Dale I don't want to argue w/ you. But suggest you try out the trap situation yourself before you make a comment. With regards to my "why you don't gain anything if you have a Super". Of course you gain something if you get out of the corner. By hitting the opponent or just runaway. What I meant to say was that unlike other characters, DJ can't use his Super since 1) Super sucks in that position (no fats reach, short invulnerability) 2) easy to get hit out. If Balrog or Ryu w/ a Super were in the same predicament, they could wait for Akumas Ground fireball, then whip out the Super, for example. Besides, would you risk losing a big shunk of life just to escape from a trap (like in my example against Fei Long, by using the Super to escape) What I was trying to say with my thread was that this trap was very good on Dee Jay. You could not get the same EXACT results with other characters. Besides, have you ever played Dee Jay, used him against Akuma? And no, Vega (my certified Akuma killer) has a WAY better chance in this trap (or the entire match against Akuma). On a side note, I believe you're evaluating my mentioned traps based on your ST experience/knowledge. It's not wrong, but don't forget that there are always exceptions in any game. These traps are exceptions (although I admit the Fei Longs could never keep up the trap for long since it took mad skill to repeatedly cancel into special with proper timing). BTW, MGU (Machine Gun Upper I assume) through a air fireball?! Sure it goes through it, but why bother using it. Same like jump up/back, counter fireball, it just makes you reacting to Akumas moves (not to mention, to make the MGU pass through you have to get all the hits out, meaning you can't just d,u + 1 X punch, and once you do the move you're still in the ending animation while Akuma can already do the next move!). You don't win a match (or a war, battles) by reacting to everything your opponent does. (Art of War rule) And jumping forward is NOT possible, unless the Akuma player has crap reaction, execution. The trap is so nicely set up (the key is the slow or medium ground fireball) that a jump in is useless since they have enough time to counter. Before you can jump, Akumas ground fireball has left him already. So he recovers from it in time to counter Dee Jays jump in. How about walking under the air fireball? Not possible. Dee Jays not fast enough and too big. All in all, please try out the traps yourself (preferably the Akuma one). Key are the straight jump Air fireball, slow fireball, and right position (around Ken standing HK distance). With regards to my conveyer belt paragraph, I basically wanted to say that the trap was easy to do and didn't require any mind,move reading on Akumas part. Just like packing, labelling goods in a factory, you do the task with the same pattern, timing. You don't worry about interference and you don't have to think on how to do it right. Just do it without hesistation (the only time Akuma has to watch out and change his "work flow" is if you decide to jump forward or get hit in mid air, so he can counter or reposition/restart the trap). I have fought a lot of Akumas (scrubs and pros). Back then, I considered myself good in ST. As an example, can you do a STRAIGHT (not back or forward) jump up into Spinning Bird kick w/ Chun Li to bypass fireballs repeatedly and flawlessly? Have you ever hit w/ Dee Jay against Akuma, during his fireball animation right after a fire ball exchange (a la Guile backfist against anyone stuck in fireball animation)? I know what I'm talking about, so please, try it out yourself. BTW, I also had problems with using Bison against O. Sagat near a corner. (Bisons big weakness is his long airborne time on a jump which makes a ground approach/walk in difficult unlike other characters who could jump up over a tiger shot, then advance a little before the next tiger shot). I broke it by advancing forward, blocking the tigers instead of jumping and timed pokes to hit or trade. But always moving away from the corner. No pointless jumping to evade fireballs since you waste time and risk getting knocked out of the Air. Smart ground approach was the key. And lots of blocking! chun_li1 Posted by chun_li1 on 09:09:2001 10:50 AM: quote: Originally posted by chun_li1 Most of the time you get thrown (but w/ throw recovery) if you try to throw Fei Long, assuming he's using standing MP to cancel into his special. chun_li1 Correction. I remember that this happened to me RARELY (throwing or getting thrown). Most of the time Fei Long will land out of throwing range. The reason why I said throw with throw recovery was that sometimes the Fei Long players would get tired of doing the cancels and attempt to throw you after the hcf, uf special to do some faster damage on your Dee Jay. chun_li1 Posted by mad on 09:09:2001 10:51 AM: dj vs akuma:0-100 winning chance!akuma air fb=double perfect.......dj is suck in st! vega is best against akuma???not!but rog is,that rushing low upper madness..... Posted by roboticus on 09:10:2001 04:11 PM: quote: Originally posted by chun_li1 I don't want to argue w/ you. But suggest you try out the trap situation yourself before you make a comment. I know what I'm talking about, and now I finally know what you're getting at. Yeah, DJ has a tough time getting out, near impossible. However, I'm arguing that your definition of a lockdown is too narrow (see BarrelO's def). There are other effective traps out there, while, not as lockdown-able as DJ v. Akuma, the results will effectively be the same. quote: Originally posted by chun_li1 What I was trying to say with my thread was that this trap was very good on Dee Jay. You could not get the same EXACT results with other characters. Besides, have you ever played Dee Jay, used him against Akuma? And no, Vega (my certified Akuma killer) has a WAY better chance in this trap (or the entire match against Akuma). Well, going by _your_ definition, then I agree, no other trap can get the same results, not any trap I know of. Congratulations on your find. The only thing that comes close is Bison v. Dhalsim in HF (Bison's c.strong xx sk, repeat ad infinitum), except Bison's timing is a ton harder. Vega is not an Akuma killer, unless you consider 2-8 wins to be killer odds for Vega. While Vega does not get "lockdown" as you would see it, he does get trapped in the corner unable to move w/out fear of dp or hk, or my favorite, hk xx dp. Accounts from Japan also agree. quote: Originally posted by chun_li1 BTW, I also had problems with using Bison against O. Sagat near a corner. (Bisons big weakness is his long airborne time on a jump which makes a ground approach/walk in difficult unlike other characters who could jump up over a tiger shot, then advance a little before the next tiger shot). I broke it by advancing forward, blocking the tigers instead of jumping and timed pokes to hit or trade. But always moving away from the corner. No pointless jumping to evade fireballs since you waste time and risk getting knocked out of the Air. Smart ground approach was the key. And lots of blocking! When you're down half your energy already, w/50 secs left in the game, you don't have time to slowly advance on Sagat. Walking a little forward just pushes you back to where you started. The match was like block three tiger shots, jump, walk forward hope to trade, miss, block 3 shots again, wow, back in the corner deja vu. When I walked forward to trade, it was like I have one guess to keep my forward momentum. As good as a player as Choi is, he easily made me guess wrong. Dale chun_li1 [/B][/QUOTE] Posted by roboticus on 09:10:2001 04:20 PM: Re: ST: Sure lock down traps ? quote: Originally posted by snk dude How do you do Dhalsim's Lock down trap in ST ? Start by fb and followed by some type of poke s.fr is common, c.jab and c.strong are good, too. It depends on the situation. If they jump (depending on the character), you have like 192093943952 anti-air opportunities, and almost as many if you hit them while they are landing. Against any fb-er, except Guile (maybe DJ), jump up or towards (depending on distance b/c you don't want to hit too high, though you do have a good chance to counter-throw/soften) and use the drill of your choice or one othe kicks or jab. If you get a throw in, you can s.strong, noogie or slide, noogie. You will find that you have a good chance of doing this a lot, too. Dale Posted by Gouki-Worshiper on 09:10:2001 04:40 PM: good thread overall. I've been reading over a lot of super turbo threads and find the comments by the HK guy funny. Let's do a brief overview of a scrub: -calls people cheap -is cocky as hell -talks about tiers all day -only likes 1-2 characters that he thinks are god someone should really talk to a mod and get his IP banned, he doesn't contribute to any conversations and just says the same thing OVER AND OVER again. He's either a. not from HK (they have/had one of the strongest ST scenes in the world b. or doesn't play ST except on his Super Nintendo alone in his room. Akuma is a great character and Honda is pretty good but by no means THE BEST IN THE GAME. Just watch any ST vids, which you obviously haven't. in USA vs Japan the US Guile player wins by timeout with the Jap player doing a c.Tiger Shot trap on US's Guile with his O.Sagat. Posted by Iceman on 09:10:2001 06:00 PM: John Choi was the US player in that video, and he was the one using O. Sagat who lost Posted by Gouki-Worshiper on 09:10:2001 06:12 PM: yeah, oops. haven't watched that vid in a while. Posted by chun_li1 on 09:11:2001 08:13 AM: To roboticus Reading your reply, roboticus, I assume you have tried it out yourself. I never tried to say straightforward, that it was 100%+ impossible to break free from the trap. I agree that my examples are not MvC type lockdowns, but it’s the closest thing in a non-VS SF game. When I said that they were lockdowns, I was also considering the capability of the Akuma player. If your opponent has played you a lot of times, he gets an idea of your habits. I want to stress again that it is VERY difficult (I havn't)) to get out of this particular Akuma trap w/ Dee Jay. Especially if the Akuma player knows your playing style/habits (from extensive playing) and understands his trap, meaning, he knows when I (or Dee Jay) have an opportunity chance/window to break the trap (your previous example w/ blocking 3 fireballs before you can jump comes to mind). Unfortunately these chances you get w/ Dee Jay are rare in this trap. I disagree with your 2-8 example with regards to Vegas capabilities against Akuma. Vega is a very good Anti Akuma character (next to mayby Balrog). This has been already debated in another thread, so I won’t go into details about what he has to give Akuma trouble. Some stuff : Low HP to counter Akumas forward jump attack/airfireball. Fast and long pokes (very useful if you don’t want to trade and eat a knockdown fireball like it happens with Guile, Chun Li to name a few), fast ground movement and helpful moves (cartwheel, wallclimb) to evade and escape. In my opinion, the trick w/ any character is to stay close and limit Akumas space. Thus his safe tactics like jump forward + fire ball are countered, cancelled. Although w/ some characters this is easier said then done. But here again Vega shows his stuff since 1) Vega is so small and fast, he can walk better into position and doesn’t have to stay as close as other characters. 2) Low HP is a good Anti air (if done from afar) since it has some priority, is not slow and the angle is just nice (unlike Guiles low HP). Scrub Akuma w/ their “abuse the moves” tactics don’t fare long. But players who play Akuma with a strong dose of Ryu are another story … With regards to when Vega is in the corner, I never got pinned down long against Akuma. If there is a trap, then it must have a different pattern, timing. BTW, I don’t understand those moves w/ Dhalsim. The way you describe it, it’s more of a keep away or annoyance then a trap. On the part with the Drills, actually you can easily counter them (punch and kick version). Standing light Punch with Chun Li, Guile (not Bisons, they suck) to name a few. Even Dee Jays standing middle punch or kick works. Basically any move that can counter Honda, Blanka body attacks. Sometimes you have to walk a little forward if the drill comes very low but otherwise it’s only an abusive move if the opponent doesn’t know an easy counter. On the part where Dhalsim jumps up and keeps you away with punches and kicks, actually it’s more of an annoyance then a trap or even keep away tactic. Me, I would just keep moving forward and stop before he sticks the limbs out, then continue moving until I’m next to him and he can’t jump straight up again. Actually it is a Cardinal sin on Dhalsims part if he keeps doing that since he is not suppose to give you a chance to get near. Or I would just hit his limb with punch or kick, although that would require a lot of understanding your characters moves and (costly) experimenting which move, what timing is required. Those slides into whatever, I agree, VERY annoying since they can keep it doing for some time. Although what makes it so dangerous is that you don’t know when Dhalsim decides to throw (if at all). He might actually never throw but just wants to push you in the corner. Countering that takes some intuition. Regarding Sagat, it's true that you can't win if you prolong the match. Right at the start of the round you have to stick close and start doing damage. If I fought a Sagat w/ Bison, first thing I'd do was probe him for his moves. When he jumps, does he use light kick or heavy kick. Then how is the timing. Is it early or late. If early there is possibility to low heavy punch (only antiair in SF:C and mayby SF:HF). And so on. (Of course I will lose the match that way, but getting intelligence is not easy) But I don't think you had that luxury against Choi ... Changing topic : After some brainstorming, I may have some more “lockdown” (should have been “super annoyance”) trap. This time for SF2: World Warrior. I don’t know if you (or anyone else) got a copy of it at home. DC or PS will do (just don’t unearth that Super Nintendo copy). Try it out. Anyway, poor guy this time is Dhalsim. This time Chun Li and Guile can annoy him. Near or in the corner w/ Chun Li : Do repeated standing middle punches, walk a step to cover lost distance from MP, MP again, etc. Me and my friend tried this on his own arcade machine. Nothing Dhalsim tried could work. In the corner w/ Guile : Do rapid low light punches which don’t hit as close as possible and keep doing it. Even if you jump with Dhalsim, stick out a move or try to get hit on purpose, all ineffective. Plus on both traps, you can mix up the moves w/ throw attempts. All right, that’s all for today. Got to beat Iseria Queen 3 more times to get goody! chun_li1 Posted by mad on 09:11:2001 08:58 AM: sagat suck!blanka also own him.... Posted by Gouki-Worshiper on 09:11:2001 01:41 PM: mad dumb! cow run over fence, lose hooves so eat more grass. if you're going to make dumb comments in a language you aren't even proficient in, give up. Posted by sf2t on 09:11:2001 01:56 PM: quote: Originally posted by Gouki-Worshiper mad dumb! cow run over fence, lose hooves so eat more grass. if you're going to make dumb comments in a language you aren't even proficient in, give up. blanka bite u Posted by Gouki-Worshiper on 09:11:2001 02:34 PM: haha, classic Posted by sf2t on 09:11:2001 02:38 PM: quote: Originally posted by Gouki-Worshiper haha, classic honda hug u and blanka! Posted by roboticus on 09:11:2001 05:06 PM: quote: Originally posted by chun_li1 To roboticus I want to stress again that it is VERY difficult (I havn't)) to get out of this particular Akuma trap w/ Dee Jay. I believe you're talking about jump straight up air-fb, land fb? I'm too lazy to look back. This trap hurts everyone, Vega, Balrog included. quote: Originally posted by chun_li1 I disagree with your 2-8 example with regards to Vegas capabilities against Akuma. Vega is a very good Anti Akuma character (next to mayby Balrog). This has been already debated in another thread, so I won’t go into details about what he has to give Akuma trouble. That was me and Tiger BOnes, I think. quote: Originally posted by chun_li1 Some stuff : Low HP to counter Akumas forward jump attack/airfireball. Fast and long pokes (very useful if you don’t want to trade and eat a knockdown fireball like it happens with Guile, Chun Li to name a few), fast ground movement and helpful moves (cartwheel, wallclimb) to evade and escape. In my opinion, the trick w/ any character is to stay close and limit Akumas space. I think this much easier said than done. At the start of the match, Akuma is already in the better position - jump straight up and choose which fb to use. Vega cannot walk under, he is too tall - not small. O.Vega? Doubtful, I haven't played any O.Vega. Perhaps, Vega can trade? If he can, then he has a better chance of getting better position. Anyway, once Akuma lands, it's ground fb time (assuming vega blocked the fb or moved backwards). If Vega thinks he can slide, Akuma will land and dp (reversal dp beats all if Vega guesses correctly and slides right away). Anything that Vega does at this point will give Akuma enough time to counter (i.e. dp). At best, Vega does a wall dive and misses, but he's that much closer/still in the corner. If you can get around this consistently, you should talk to Apoc. quote: Originally posted by chun_li1 Thus his safe tactics like jump forward + fire ball are countered, cancelled. Although w/ some characters this is easier said then done. But here again Vega shows his stuff since 1) Vega is so small and fast, he can walk better into position and doesn’t have to stay as close as other characters. 2) Low HP is a good Anti air (if done from afar) since it has some priority, is not slow and the angle is just nice (unlike Guiles low HP). Scrub Akuma w/ their “abuse the moves” tactics don’t fare long. But players who play Akuma with a strong dose of Ryu are another story … With regards to when Vega is in the corner, I never got pinned down long against Akuma. If there is a trap, then it must have a different pattern, timing. Of course, Akuma isn't going to robotically (or roboticusly do his air-fb trap, but he does have the luxuory to wait and see. It's the fact that Akuma has no lag time when he lands combined with the nice angle of his air fbs that makes him so dangerous. Also, walking around and poking is going to get you dp'd. Half of Cali will dp you on reaction. Perhaps, you're really good at mixing it up, though. quote: Originally posted by chun_li1 BTW, I don’t understand those moves w/ Dhalsim. The way you describe it, it’s more of a keep away or annoyance then a trap. On the part with the Drills, actually you can easily counter them (punch and kick version). Standing light Punch with Chun Li, Guile (not Bisons, they suck) to name a few. Even Dee Jays standing middle punch or kick works. Basically any move that can counter Honda, Blanka body attacks. Sometimes you have to walk a little forward if the drill comes very low but otherwise it’s only an abusive move if the opponent doesn’t know an easy counter. Again, easier said that done, but then again, I haven't played you, but what I've seen from tournaments, this not likely. Anyway, I call it a trap, which I may be using too loosely. I call it a trap b/c it uses fbs, and the ultimate effect is have someone jump/land/eat a limb. Like I said before, we have different definitions. Standing pokes get beat, b/c N.Dhalsim can poke w/c.jab and c.strong underneath the s.pokes. Zangief can actually c.strong, but it's tough as hell to do. quote: Originally posted by chun_li1 After some brainstorming, I may have some more “lockdown” (should have been “super annoyance”) trap. This time for SF2: World Warrior. Anyway, poor guy this time is Dhalsim. This time Chun Li and Guile can annoy him. Near or in the corner w/ Chun Li : Do repeated standing middle punches, walk a step to cover lost distance from MP, MP again, etc. In the corner w/ Guile : Do rapid low light punches which don’t hit as close as possible and keep doing it. Even if you jump with Dhalsim, stick out a move or try to get hit on purpose, all ineffective. I've never heard of this before. This works in the arcade? Well, I don't know of any WW machines, nor do I own a DC. Based on my experience, i cannot agree with you, though I would like to test this out. WW has always been about Guile, Dhalsim. Dale Posted by loki on 09:12:2001 01:24 AM: I want to learn ST and i had a question, if anyone can help me out. How do you select O. characters in ST?? Are there different commands for each character, or similar for all? thanls alot, loki Posted by mad on 09:12:2001 02:17 AM: not!rog can rushing low upper to air-fb! but someone say shoto low strong beat the low rush......i dunno true or not.... Posted by Cletus Kasady on 09:12:2001 02:23 AM: quote: Originally posted by mad dj vs akuma:0-100 winning chance!akuma air fb=double perfect.......dj is suck in st! vega is best against akuma???not!but rog is,that rushing low upper madness..... Why in the HELL haven't you been IP banned yet? Posted by Gouki-Worshiper on 09:12:2001 02:49 AM: hey, it's good entertainment : P Posted by mad on 09:12:2001 06:54 AM: quote: Originally posted by Cletus Kasady Why in the HELL haven't you been IP banned yet? ban your fuck ass! Posted by roboticus on 09:12:2001 04:06 PM: quote: Originally posted by Cletus Kasady Why in the HELL haven't you been IP banned yet? I often wonder that myself. I respond to his ridiculous q's in the vain hope that someone else will learn from it. Why he hasn't been banned? I don't know, cable modem w/dynamic IP address? It's pretty price equipment. Posted by mad on 09:13:2001 05:13 AM: quote: Originally posted by roboticus I often wonder that myself. I respond to his ridiculous q's in the vain hope that someone else will learn from it. Why he hasn't been banned? I don't know, cable modem w/dynamic IP address? It's pretty price equipment. u can't ban honda master!!!fuck u all Posted by chun_li1 on 09:13:2001 10:12 AM: To roboticus, I don’t think I can dedicate enough time to answer on your reply (or any additional ones on this topic) anymore. I just looked at the thread, and basically we’re the only ones filling it up. I always believe in the saying “A picture explains more then 1000 words”, so before we type 1,000,000 more words, let’s leave it as it is. Make it a draw, undecided, both are wrong/right. If I could show you a movie demonstration, I would gladly do it. Since I can’t, you just have to make up your own mind about what I wrote and if it is valid/true. But I can’t help myself to quit now before I correct you on Vega. Vega is tall, but to get under/past the Airfireball, you have to duck before it hits you. You don’t run as fast as possible forward when you see it. And you only do this (that goes for all characters) when you’re near. So if Akuma jumps forward w/ air fireball, walk forward, duck and stick out the low HP. It hits Akuma BEFORE he lands (basically you have to hit him in the air). Other examples would be Chun Lis low HK, DJs low HK. OK, that’s it for now. Besides, why the heck am I writing so much positive stuff on Akuma. Looks like my old nightmare is haunting me again! That piece of #%#%&! Until now I still hate him. Ryu and Ken any day. Just not Akuma!!! Oh, BTW, those things with Chun Li and Guile on WW were first done on a arcade machine. My friend had his own, so we had all the time to experiment. I don’t think we would have had the patience to do this in the arcade, even if we did Draw games until round 10. I guarantee that they work. Since the WW engine is so screwed up (all those re-dizzies and glitches), traps like these are possible. There was also a weird trap w/ Chun Li on Honda my friend saw. But can’t remember exactly how it went. Something to do w/ her jumping low MK. And, before I forget, before that HF trap w/ Bison on Dhalsim you mentioned, there was already one around in CE. Although WAY easier to do (SK, low MP, low MK, SK, etc.) chun_li1 Posted by mad on 09:13:2001 10:17 AM: quote: Originally posted by chun_li1 To roboticus, I don’t think I can dedicate enough time to answer on your reply (or any additional ones on this topic) anymore. I just looked at the thread, and basically we’re the only ones filling it up. I always believe in the saying “A picture explains more then 1000 words? so before we type 1,000,000 more words, let’s leave it as it is. Make it a draw, undecided, both are wrong/right. If I could show you a movie demonstration, I would gladly do it. Since I can’t, you just have to make up your own mind about what I wrote and if it is valid/true. But I can’t help myself to quit now before I correct you on Vega. Vega is tall, but to get under/past the Airfireball, you have to duck before it hits you. You don’t run as fast as possible forward when you see it. And you only do this (that goes for all characters) when you’re near. So if Akuma jumps forward w/ air fireball, walk forward, duck and stick out the low HP. It hits Akuma BEFORE he lands (basically you have to hit him in the air). Other examples would be Chun Lis low HK, DJs low HK. OK, that’s it for now. Besides, why the heck am I writing so much positive stuff on Akuma. Looks like my old nightmare is haunting me again! That piece of #%#%&! Until now I still hate him. Ryu and Ken any day. Just not Akuma!!! Oh, BTW, those things with Chun Li and Guile on WW were first done on a arcade machine. My friend had his own, so we had all the time to experiment. I don’t think we would have had the patience to do this in the arcade, even if we did Draw games until round 10. I guarantee that they work. Since the WW engine is so screwed up (all those re-dizzies and glitches), traps like these are possible. There was also a weird trap w/ Chun Li on Honda my friend saw. But can’t remember exactly how it went. Something to do w/ her jumping low MK. And, before I forget, before that HF trap w/ Bison on Dhalsim you mentioned, there was already one around in CE. Although WAY easier to do (SK, low MP, low MK, SK, etc.) chun_li1 so how guile avoid the air fb?u does not mention yet!is it forward plus short? Posted by chun_li1 on 09:13:2001 10:27 AM: Cannot avoid. Can only eat it. Pray, pray, you not lose life if eat too many. (Translated : No sure way. If there is I wouldn't know!) chun_li1 Posted by ssf2 on 09:13:2001 10:43 AM: quote: Originally posted by chun_li1 Cannot avoid. Can only eat it. Pray, pray, you not lose life if eat too many. (Translated : No sure way. If there is I wouldn't know!) chun_li1 so is guile the only char in ST can't avoid the air fb?!?!? btw,can i neutralize the air fb with sonic boom? All times are GMT. The time now is 11:21 PM. Show all 41 posts from this thread on one page Powered by: vBulletin Version 2.2.4 Copyright © Jelsoft Enterprises Limited 2000, 2001.